Okay, good morning, everyone. I'd like to call this special meeting of Township Council's order for November 4th,
2026.
I'd like to begin by acknowledging that we are on the traditional territories of the Kwantlen, Kacie,
Semiamu, and Matsukui First Nations.
We're going to start with
the special council meeting.
Sorry, can I have a mover and a seconder to adopt the agenda items for today's meeting?
Moved by Councillor Coonst, seconded by Councillor Martins.
We'll start by, can I have a mover and seconder to adopt the minutes of the August 19th special meeting?
We have to have a vote, yes.
So,
we'll start the vote now. Motion carried
unanimously. Yeah, note
Councillor Ferguson absent. Can I have a mover and seconder to adopt the minutes of the August 19th
special meeting? Moved by Councillor Whitmarsh,
seconded by Councillor Martins.
Starting to vote. That's carried unanimously.
Note absence of Councillor Ferguson.
No, okay, no problem.
Okay, thank you. We will move to our items for discussion starting with item C1, the forensic audit.
Can I have a mover and seconder for item C1? We've got moved by Councillor Richter,
seconded by Councillor Coonst. Do we have any questions or discussion?
Councillor Richter.
Yeah, a couple of questions. Number one,
I'm very happy to see this motion here. Very happy to be able to participate in the vote on it.
I'm just wondering,
approximately how long will it take us to get this done? How long will it take us to get a forensic auditor?
Our hope is to be completed the audit within
90 days. We did in our platform put 100 days,
so but our goal is to have the audit completed within 90 days. Okay, thank you.
Councillor.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I did want to say that I've just got this item on today, the forensic, and my
question is very more simple than anything else. What is a forensic audit? That's my question if
I may to you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Cooner, could you detail a forensic audit to Councillor Ferguson?
Generally, a forensic audit would be something at audit that would investigate specific items.
Usually when fraud or misconduct or financial irregularities are implied.
We do get a financial audit of our
statements of our transactions during the year. This would be much more detailed
and targeted and often a deeper dive into items.
Oh, so I mean, I don't have a designation as an accountant, so I thank you for that answer, but
have you ever done, if I may, a forensic audit? Are you knowledgeable of what it takes to do it?
No, I do not have any expertise in that. So, here we are today. I'm just trying to help everybody
here. They've got a motion and it covers an awful lot of information. That's great.
My suggestion, Mr. Mayor, is to, we just got this today, is to have a presentation by some
professional in the field of forensic auditing and explain to us how it's done, because I don't
know anybody at this table that's got a designation as an accountant. I certainly don't. And that way,
we can learn about and we can go through just a number of items, which I understand why we're
doing this and make that make sense, but I would certainly not, because this is very, very
important. I'm just suggesting that we would do that. We just got this today and I was just
suggesting we do that. Well, I can put a motion before the floor that we do that. I'm so moved
that we have a professional in forensic auditing come before us and do an explanation of what it is
and how we as a council and let the taxpayers know from a, you know, okay, it's a presentation
point of and that would be my motion. Thank you, Councillor Ferguson. Councillor Martin.
Martin's. Oh, there's a motion on the floor now there. Okay.
Councillor Martin's. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Ferguson, for your motion.
I would draw your attention to page two of the agenda item A. Therefore, be it resolved that
council direct the staff to engage on an expedited basis and notwithstanding the ordinary
timelines of the township's purchasing policy and procurement of consultants they're under
independent forensic audit team reporting directly to council and authorize the staff to select and
appoint the members of that team which shall include at a minimum a chartered professional
accountant with forensic audit experience an experienced investigator and such legal
engineering real estate or other specialist as the audit requires so I believe it's more than covered
off this is not something that staff are being asked to do specifically so I will not be
supporting your motion. Councillor Kunst. Oh, sorry, Councillor Pratt. Yeah, thank you,
worship and I appreciate Councillor Ferguson bringing the deferral forward. Simply the fact
that in that clause it states that we're going outside of the ordinary timeline for the
township's purchasing policy it to me doesn't necessarily mean that we shouldn't have a
presentation from a professional seeing as the remaining clauses in this motion
uh don't stipulate an actual definitive end to the timeline of this audit there might be
some funding sources identified here but we don't know how much money is in them and we don't know
what the prior surplus amount that we may need to as it says here in the by in the resolution
make an amendment to the 2026-2030 financial plan four so before we undertake something that the
township's never done before before we undertake something that and I'll have more to say about
after this motion is dealt with before we do something like this we heard time and time again
over the last term the need for presentations over significant items and how important it
is for presentations on certain things when we're undertaking something of this magnitude with an
undefined scope with an undefined cost I think it's prudent that we get into presentation from
people who are experts in the field and who are going to tell us what a forensic audit might find
in audited financial statements thank you Councillor Pratt Councillor Kunst yeah thank you
Councillor Martins for bringing that to our attention it's in the in the agenda and and
I can actually see a presentation after the forensic audit is completed so I mean I don't
think it's it's it's pretty straightforward what a forensic audit is and it was explained
and by Councillor Martin so I'm not going to support the the deferral I think we need to get
on with it and then after the forensic audit is done and completed then we can have a presentation
thank you thank you Councillor Kunst Councillor Whitmarsh yeah I think in in the in the motion
it does under the there be it resolved in section b as well outlines quite clearly the scope of the
audit I don't think we need a presentation of what a forensic audit is that to explain what
a forensic audit is would take a matter of minutes I think this what would be helpful is
to have as Councillor Kunst has suggested a presentation after the forensic audit is
completed that's quite clear who would be part of the forensic audit that there are professionals
using externally based professionals it's also quite clear what the scope of it will
be section b outlines it very clearly and the timeline so all the things that have been
suggested we need to do are actually clearly stated in the motion and so I wouldn't be
supporting a presentation now but I certainly would support a presentation after the audit
is completed thank you Councillor Whitmarsh Councillor Pratt yeah thank you Your Worship
I would certainly hope that after a forensic audit and something like this is completed that
we get a presentation detailing the findings so I'm glad to hear that that is a common expectation
one of the things I'd be curious to know from a presentation from an expert or from experts
ahead of proceeding with something like this is to refer to Ms Ross comments when she was giving
her explanation about what a forensic audit is in in her interview she mentioned that it's
typically done to investigate fraud or malfeasance or something like that irregularities and so I would
appreciate a presentation or if not a presentation from an expert about who we might be investigating
for fraud or for having done something wrong I'd love to know that before we proceed and if we
don't get a presentation perhaps yourself or somebody here at this table can tell us who we
are investigating for fraud or who we are investigating for having done something illegal
and that would be a question through yourself Your Worship to staff or to yourself
The point of the question is to name people. Well I'm very sorry but that is
inappropriate material for an open council meeting.
Councilor Ferguson. Well I'm trying to do you guys a favor today. I'm not
accounting. Guess what I did last night or less? I phoned my brother who is
designated accountant for a large company. He's retired now. The international
company. I said well what's international? What is this? What's the type of an audit?
Forensic audit. He said what are you talking about? He said we have audits. This
township of Langley have audits. All public companies have audits. We have an audit.
He said well only time that you're going to do an audit is if you have evidence
in advance is that you want to proceed with a legal and an accounting organization
that you want to go after that evidence. And so he said I can't help you anymore
than that but it's a very complicated. It's not a simple thing that's been
mentioned a few minutes ago. So okay that's the first step. Okay so I phoned
up somebody from another community who is a designated accountant.
I said well township of Langley is thinking of putting together a forensic audit.
I said what? The person said what? We've never done that in the history and I
guess the township never done that in history. There's a very first time.
So I think if you're going to do it you might as well do it right.
And you want to make sure that we're transparent in what we're doing. So
that person's well yeah you can have your
your forensic audit. But you know what you could spend a lot of money
already doing an audit. Yearly we do audits. We have
notes from the auditor. We have a system. I think you could ask the
director of finance right now what that says. We have KPG doing it.
So you know we have an audit. So I try to do that favor where we
could sit down we can get a guy do a presentation from
a man or woman do a presentation and we it can learn a little bit more and
find out how it works. And now the third thing I phoned up
another community. And yes this community in Richmond they did a
forensic audit. It was a regarding it was all over the
news. The Olympic oval and all sorts of things going on.
They did a forensic audit cost them five hundred thousand dollars and nothing was
found. Not a single thing. So let's be
careful about doing these things. I'm trying to be cautious with you
guys. Careful because before you know we're
telling the taxpayers all sorts of things and we're spending money
and not getting a result out of it. And so that's why
if we can and I would ask that person to come forward if
if we do have a present. I'm not after that not after a b c or d in the
there for us those are action items those are
things already voted on. And an emotion is very important. So I
would ask that person excuse me sir or ma'am
how would you do your audit and what would that involve
and what were the steps and how you're not that way.
And what if we don't find anything out of that's those kind of questions.
And you do they have power to do an enactment on those things. Those
are my points. I just think it's important that we
proceed with some transparency on this motion.
Thank you Councillor Ferguson. Councillor Kunst.
Yeah appreciate all the discussion at the table but can I suggest that we call
the question on the deferral. Yes we call the vote on the
deferral. Motion start that now. That motion is
defeated. Sorry the results are off my screen now so
I'm sorry it was it was um Councillor Pratt and Councillor Ferguson.
Okay Councillor Pratt and Councillor Ferguson were in favor
were in favor of the different yeah um
I will call the vote then for item c1. Okay sorry uh
Barb uh Councillor Martins. Sorry no I'd already spoken. Okay
uh okay Councillor Pratt. So I just want to confirm or back to the main motion
correct. So obviously the you know when we come to
resolutions of council it's to therefore be it resolves that really are the meat
of the issue and the whereas is they simply set the table.
But I do think it's important to set the table correctly in certain
situations and clause two in the whereas clauses.
The truth of the matter is that the trust does not have to go through the
same community charter process as the municipality.
And so that you know it's just it's just a simple fact. And then when I when
I look at some of the other whereas clauses
specifically clause five where we are we are we are talking about land
transactions and capital projects. Lands transactions that are required to follow
the Township of Langley's land disposition policy.
And everybody who's been a part of council and who sat and closed meetings
knows that. And we also have capital projects all of
which are funded through either capital requests or are funded through
resolutions of council here. And they are all publicly available. They're
all very very part very much part of the
public record. And we have agreements and contracts that
are executed by professional members of staff.
They might be directed to do certain things or
asked to do certain things by council. But at the end of the day
all of these items are required to go through multiple steps
multiple hoops to make sure that they are done correctly. And so
when we are setting the table for something like a forensic audit which
as we heard are used is used to investigate
potential fraud or irregularities or illegal activities and we are talking
about items that are either dealt with in the
public by resolution of council or motions or
votes of council or being executed by professional staff
who have designations who have years of experience.
That raises questions about who we are looking at
in an audit. And then we proceed to the actual
clauses of the audit or of the motion itself.
We say direct the staff to engage on an expedited basis.
Great. But then after talking about 100 days of an audit or 90 days of an
audit we don't quite know how many days this audit is going to take.
And in fact we're giving whatever team we assemble
for however much that's going to cost effectively an unlimited timeline
to deliver this audit. We're not actually setting
a parameter for when this audit needs to be returned to us by in this motion.
And so not only are we giving them unlimited scope creep
which will theoretically and almost certainly cause
cost creep we do not know how much this is going to cost. And we do not know
how much is in mayor's contingency or council
contingency unless we can ask for yourself your worship
how much is in those contingencies and do we know how much they are.
And then how much is going to be overran and required to be taken from prior year
surplus. So do we know how much is in that's my
first question do we know how much is in mayor and council contingency at this
point. Thanks Councillor Prad I don't have those
specific numbers available to me right now.
Councillor Coons. So I appreciate that and fair enough if we
if we don't know how much money we have to spend on
this audit then that's raises a concern for me. So we're
going into it with a actually unidentified timeline
with uncertainty around how much funding is available and we know
that if prior year surplus is going to have to be tapped that's
a capital project or that's operating or that's debt servicing that's not being
paid for because it's being paid for by this audit. So
do we have an idea yet of which capital project
would not be funded if we have to dip into prior year surplus.
Thanks Councillor Prad our intention is to make sure that all
projects underway are completed. Okay and
and if a project isn't underway if it has yet to be funded. I don't have an
answer to that right now. So then as we move down again the
clause is in the in the motion and we're asking for certain pieces of
information that again all members of council
in the previous council and all members of the public have access to the annual
report with audited financial statements audited
by KPMG which as far as I'm concerned or as far as I'm
aware is still one of the big four accounting firms in the world.
What is it exactly that we are looking to find
that we cannot either a find in the audited financial statements
that are publicly available audited by KPMG and are approved by the inspector
of municipalities. What are we looking to find in those
statements that aren't there that aren't visible
and what is it that we hope to
uncover because as far as I'm aware our books are completely open. The member of
the public could come into the chambers today and
request a copy of our audited annual financial statements.
Any member of council past council or this one
could sit down with staff and ask questions and be given answers.
So through yourself your worship to yourself
or to members of your team have any members of council sat down with
Ms. Russ, with Mr. Cooner, with any of our senior staff to ask
detailed questions that could be given to them without spending
an unknown quantity on an audit that we do not know
when it will end. Has anybody actually sat down and asked questions to staff?
I'll open that question to anyone who wants to answer
or we can move. Okay thanks. On how long a person can speak to
under the procedure bylaw. Ms. Bauer do we have
do we have that information? I believe it is, pardon me, you can speak
up to two times per issue so either per motion so that would include
speaking twice for a referral or deferral and then
two times for a main motion and you can speak it up for five minutes each
each time. I do not know it's not something we've done but
if directed we can figure something out.
We do have we have other speakers here too so I'll
Councillor Martins. Thank you. So all I my only comment here I
just want to say is I'm hearing a concern about
the cost of doing a forensic audit and can we afford it.
My comment is only can we afford not to do a forensic audit.
I believe the funding sources have been identified
and I have no further comments other to this other speaker. I'm not going to
entertain those questions. That's it. Thank you Councillor
Martins. Councillor Ferguson. Do we have a clarification on that?
Councillor Ferguson. The division means that a b all the
numbers would be voted on separately. You can ask the clerk you don't have to
ask me. Do we have a seconder for that motion?
Seconded by Councillor Pratt. Councillor Townsley.
I will not be supporting division in this case because I believe this is is
grandstanding and by dividing this particular motion it
denudes the entire motion and so I will not be supporting division in
this case. Okay. We'll call to vote the amendment to
move to division. I'll start that vote now.
Oh sorry Councillor Ferguson. Actually a division motion is is a
bona fide motion that's never ever been classified as
grandstanding. It's a simple motion under our policy
that any member of council can give on a regular basis.
Thank you. Thank you Councillor Ferguson. We'll move
the motion to see when division to vote. That motion was defeated with
Councillor Ferguson and Councillor Pratt voting.
Yes. I will call to anyone else. Oh Councillor Pratt.
Thank you Your Worship. I appreciate that Your Worship. Thank you.
It's again as Councillor Ferguson alluded to
when he first spoke. Significant motion lots in it and I think
we all remember how many times it was concern was expressed
for receiving motions significant motions with lots in them at the last
minute with very little time to review the
contents of it. So I'm able to go through this motion
and find my concerns especially around that we do not know
what is in the funding sources. We do not know how much time is there
or money is there. I do know how much time I have because
Councillor Richter is timing me here to my right.
We don't know how much is going to have to be taken from prior year surplus.
We don't know which projects are going to have to be deferred or not done
because of this. We don't know what we're looking for.
We don't know who we're accusing of fraud and we also
don't know how long it will take. So if we had a presentation detailing
these items, if we had more information that was actually practical, that wasn't
a motion that was written to grandstand, then I'd be more comfortable
supporting it. But in this current state I can't. So
thank you your worship. I appreciate your leniency with time and
look forward to the vote. Thank you Councillor Pratt.
Councillor Whitmarsh. Yeah this is you know it's so interesting to me
that's quite clear what the forensic audit is. It says in
B what we're looking at. There isn't anyone at the council table
that has suggested that we're looking for fraud.
That was simply supplied to us as an example of when a forensic audit might be
used. No one at this table has said where
you think there's fraud and we're looking for it. No one has
such that any targeted person that we're looking after,
it says quite clearly in B what we're looking at and if we look at the
things that are in point B, they are also things that are not included in
audited financial statements. This is a much more in-depth audit
that's done and we have had in the last four
years unprecedented spending that no community in British Columbia has seen
so rapidly so quickly with borrowing at levels that are
beyond what we've ever seen and most of us on council
now that are sitting at this council table have no idea how where that money
is coming from, where the money where the debt's being paid from
and we have a lot of questions and so to start the council term with a financial
audit is good leadership. It demonstrates
that we are being accountable to the taxpayers.
We want to do a financial audit and find what that is and I would agree with
Councillor Martins that we can't we don't have the ability to say
or we'd have the ability but we can't not
do this. This is a critical thing to see where we are at the start
after unprecedented spending that no community in British Columbia has ever
seen and so this is a financial that's very
clear in point B and not one point in there says we are looking for fraud
and so I would appreciate it if the members of some members of council would
stop suggesting we're looking for fraud because we've never suggested that
and so I absolutely will be supporting we move forward on this.
A report would be great and if there's nothing to find then that's wonderful
that's actually fantastic news if we find nothing
and we have a very clear position of where we start
this next term from a financial perspective and so if we've done
everything properly if we've managed everything properly we've done
everything according to the way that we should do it
then there should be absolutely no fear in a forensic audit
so I will absolutely be supporting this.
Thank you, Councillor Whitmarsh. We have reached our maximums, but I'm going to give Councillor Ferguson and Councillor Pratt one more opportunity to speak, Councillor Ferguson.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I want to ask the staff a question through the chair for item number B.
Are we not able to do that through our normal auditing processes that we exist today?
On reviewing this scope, it would look like it's more extensive than the regular financial statement audit.
If the auditor's letter, would they not include all the actions within the township of Langley?
This actually looks to be looking at very specific items. They would probably not go as deep as things like change orders, etc.
I think that I'd happen to disagree, to some degree, with what Councillor Whitmarsh has said,
but there are some truths about the amount of spending in the township of Langley.
We have a high school and middle school coming up in the township of Langley spending, which is some $300 million.
We have a highway that goes through our community. It is under construction right now, which is in the billions of dollars.
We have a liquid waste plant in northwest Langley. It's in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
We have a new park, both a park coming in like a south Langley and another one, Marina Park, which would be millions of dollars.
We have a recycling center coming in, another $21 million, and the list goes on.
I would think that folks are envious to the amount of spending at the township of Langley by many levels of government,
both federal, provincial, and local.
People will be thanking the township of Langley Councillors, MPs, and MLAs for the work they've done ten years from now.
When children are going to school, will people be playing in parks?
Will there be people putting their boats in the water in the Marina, and the list goes on,
and they'll be driving from Surrey all the way to Abbotsford and beyond on a highway that is going to be completed?
And people say, how did Langley do it?
I'm not going to say anything more than I was hoping to give some transparency.
I don't agree with what's being said by some of my colleagues, how much is too much.
We have an audit system.
This will be the very first time in certainly my history, history of township of Langley, that we've gone this route.
We could have gone a different route.
We could have sat down and gone over the books and tried to find the answers with our team here.
But I just can't see any point of going forward with something that could cost a million dollars.
That's my position.
Thank you, Councillor First and Councillor Kunst.
Yeah, I heard the word transparency, so that kind of triggered me.
And that's something that we all, we campaigned on that.
So a forensic audit will actually show us a lot.
Maybe it shows us things that we don't know anything about.
That's what a forensic audit's about.
So maybe we can all just get on with voting.
If you're not going to vote for it, don't vote for it.
You're allowed that privilege of not voting for it.
So I will be supporting a forensic audit.
And maybe we can call the question on it.
I will call the vote then.
And C1.
Motion carried with Councillor Ferguson and Councillor Pratt opposed.
Move us to item C2, inventory of procedural change.
Can I have a mover and seconder for item C2?
Moved by Councillor Townsley, seconded by Councillor Chellis.
Open for discussion on item C2.
Councillor Pratt.
Yeah, thank you, Your Worship.
Through yourself to staff, any of the items listed under A,
if a member of council was to ask staff for a redlined copy of any of these items
showing amendments that have been done and potential timeline for those amendments,
if any member of council were to ask staff for that,
would they be afforded the privilege of receiving that?
Mr. Cooner?
At your worship to Councillor Pratt, in the event it's requested by a member of the council
and we have a redlined copy, it would be provided.
My understanding is the majority of these items are not the redlined copy,
but the actual bylaws or policies are available online.
Sorry, I just want to confirm.
Most of these, you said, not all, are available online,
not the redlined copy, but the most up-to-date version of them
that are currently in effect.
Is that correct? Those are publicly available online?
Through Your Worship to Councillor Pratt, the bylaws, yes.
Some of the policies would have to be requested.
Right, yeah.
I'm assuming labour relations, things around land,
obviously those are dealt with in clothes,
and so they would not be publicly available per se.
That would be a proper process to have them given to a member of the public
or any member of council.
I believe we are all entitled to anything that's enclosed.
Is that correct?
Through Your Worship to Councillor Pratt,
with respect to policies, yes.
And majority of the items unless there's a specific restriction around an item.
Great, I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Pratt.
Councillor Ferguson.
Oh, yes.
I wanted to make either a motion or suggestion that Unit A direct staff to report
to council with 120 days, 60 days doesn't seem like very much time.
And it gives the staff a bit more than 120 days.
Okay, we've got an amendment to move to 120 days.
I'll start the vote on that.
Could we ask staff a question before we ask them a question?
Councillor Whitmer, do you have a question for staff?
Thank you through Your Worship.
I guess I just would like to maybe get some perspective,
maybe through Mr. Cooner,
what thoughts are around the 60 days or 120 days,
rather than us suggesting what we think is reasonable.
What might make sense from a staff perspective?
Through Your Worship to Councillor Whitmer,
with respect to the items listed,
I believe compiling the Bylaws and Policy would not be that no nurse of a task,
but I believe it's the item is identifying the changes,
the dates, move or seconders, recorded votes,
and then the staff reports itself,
and then also summarizing everything in plain language
and then providing potential options.
To council, that would be, I think, more work.
Obviously, more time is extended just due to other competing priorities
and taking into consideration, we only have three meetings, I believe, left.
Let me just...
Three meetings before the Christmas break,
so obviously more time would be appreciated,
but that's what council's mandate and direction would be.
Staff would try to comply.
Okay, thank you.
Councillor Townsley.
It is a request for Mr. Cooner to speak up
so that we can actually hear his response,
which would take precedent over what's on our screens.
That's my simple request,
is that if we could have Mr. Cooner speak up a little bit,
because we're having a little hard time hearing him at the table here.
Do you need anything repeated?
Councillor Townsley.
Okay.
Councillor Ferguson.
Oh, just following up with what Councillor Woodmarsh has said,
you know, in the next 120 days, could be helpful.
I mean, it's a lot of work.
We just started, and I would hope that you...
If I may, through a chair to the clerk, if I may, Mr. Bower,
do you have your own staff, which are exempt staff?
Do you work with union staff as well?
Yes, the department is made up of both union and exempt staff.
I think those mics are working.
It is hard to hear.
If I may, I don't think those mics are working.
I don't believe the mics are working.
I'm sorry, I'll move in.
Yes, the Legislative Services Division is made up of both union
and exempt staff.
Yes, so I mean, I'm sure the union folk, you know,
I can't speak for exempt, most of them are here today,
and you are here representing them.
I think they would certainly like a little bit more time,
but I mean, they're busy enough as it is,
so it's not just the exempt staff, the union staff as well.
Thank you.
Thanks, Councillor Ferguson, Councillor Pratt.
Yeah, thank you, Your Worship.
Regarding the 120 days and the 60 days,
and then there's a 90 days in terms of publishing the report
on the Township website, through yourself to staff,
since a number of these items that are being requested
for more information are items that pertain to closed,
how will the report in 90 days be published on the public website
if there are items that pertain to closed, such as labor relations
or land acquisitions and disposal?
Dear Worship to Councillor Pratt,
I believe those are items that need to be considered
by the experts that are going to be engaged along with staff
and council, potentially that through the progress of this item
that council may get updated and closed
and take some of those items into consideration
and provide direction, so obviously this is still at the preliminary stage.
The motion just carried, so this would need to be analyzed
and then the steps would need to be taken
and then any other considerations or items requiring further directions,
council would be advised or potentially of how the appointment
of the members of that team would then need to be advised of that
or potentially let council know.
Thank you for that, and I just want to confirm,
so we're talking about potentially hiring experts
to assist with the compilation of this report,
and if we are, how much are we anticipating that will cost?
Sorry, through your worship to Councillor Pratt,
you mentioned, I thought you were still referring to items C1,
as you had mentioned, land dispositions and acquisitions
and some of those items, with respect to C2,
my understanding is it's policies related to these items.
I don't believe it's specific transactions,
but if that is the intent, then we would have to take that into consideration
and whether there's any implications of closed items.
Appreciate that, thank you.
We need to go back to the motion to move it to 120 days.
I swear I got learning the system here on the vote.
So move to C2 amendment one, vote.
That is defeated with Councillors Pratt, Ferguson,
and Whitmarsh opposed.
In favour, sorry.
I'll call to vote, sorry, the current motion.
We've got, I'll call Councillor Pratt.
Yeah, thank you, worship,
and I appreciate the comprehensive nature of the motion.
Again, lost to digest.
When the report is published, what's the hope, what's the goal,
what's the intent behind this motion from your perspective?
The intent is just to make sure that these duties
and are full of traditional ways that have been done in the past
and to make sure that there's alignment there
between the Mayor Council and staff.
Councillor Coons.
Yeah, I recall in 2022 and we made a lot of these changes.
There was a lot of procedural changes
and I don't recall that there was too much opposition to it
from some of the speakers.
So I think it's a good idea to just kind of take a look at,
you know, past practice and make sure that, you know,
unintended consequences sometimes have a negative effect
on some of the either, well, I'll save it
for either members of our community, our staff, our, you know, council.
So I think it's a good idea to take a look
and just, you know, we have a list of things
that I think we can take a look at, so I'm supportive.
I don't see an issue with it.
Councillor Coons.
Councillor Ferguson.
Thank you.
It's just through the chair again.
Now, some of these items require by-law readings, if I may,
or I'm looking at the procedural by-law.
How many readings would we, if we're going to make changes,
how many readings would they require, if I may, through the chair?
Through worship to Councillor Ferguson, I believe this was,
it's a report to indicate the changes,
but if there's any recommendations of policy or by-law changes,
policy can be done within one meeting.
By-laws take four readings to ensure that the by-law
is adopted by council.
Yeah, so there's a lot of work and a lot of time.
I mean, I appreciate the comment from my colleague,
Councillor Whitmarsh, about the fact, you know,
there's a lot of time and perhaps, you know,
I know I'm not going to get much support here,
but I would like to refer this to the first meeting of Council.
I believe it's December, pardon me, November 16th, if I may?
We refer this to the, because we just got it today
and we haven't had a lot of time to look and review.
I mean, in fact, I'm just reading the last paragraph right now.
I mean, I just, that's why I was a little bit late
in coming in the meeting, I'm still reading this.
So I would like to refer this to the November 16th meeting
and give everybody a chance to look at it and review it.
So I'll move.
Thank you, Councillor Ferguson.
Councillor Martins.
I'm sorry, seconded by Councillor Pratt.
Councillor Martins.
Yes, I was hoping to speak on the main motion.
I don't have any comments on this deferral.
Okay, I'll come back to you then.
We can vote on the current motion.
Councillor Richter. Thank you. With regards to this referral motion I'm opposed to it
quite strongly because as I recall in June July there was a number of key
pieces of information of business that was ongoing that was deferred to the
November 16th meeting. So I'm assuming we're going to have quite an extensive
November 16th meeting package as is. The second thing is that I don't really
believe this needs to be deferred to another meeting. It's on the table now. It
has been duly moved and seconded. I think it needs to be voted on and I don't
think deferring it or referring it to another meeting is prudent right now
with all the other business that's in front of this new council. Thank you. So
I'm not supporting this referral. Thank you Councillor Richter. Councillor Pratt.
Yeah thank you Your Worship. Just a clarification question before proceeding.
Is the motion a referral or a deferral? Do yourself to staff. Dear Worship to
Councillor Pratt this would be a deferral to the November 16th meeting. This
was a deferral. Great. So the reason I'll be supporting deferral and would even
support a referral is we're not looking at any procedural changes here and in
fact what we're doing is directing staff to spend hours and months of work for
items that any member of staff any member of council could sit down with
staff and ask for and get and share with their colleagues. So I agree with
Councillor Richter that we have a likely very long agenda on the 16th but we
won't get that agenda until the Thursday before. So we've got from now until then
for any member of council to sit down with staff ask any question that they
would like about any number of these policies any changes that were made over
the last term and what those changes meant and they could share it with any
member of council that they wished. So I'll be supporting this deferral. Thank
you Councillor Pratt. Councillor Kintz. Yeah out of respect for our staff I think
they'd probably appreciate not having to meet with eight members of council or
six. So you know we have we have this motion so I'm just going to support the
motion so that they probably save them a lot of time then meeting with all of
us individually. Thank you Councillor Kintz. Councillor Townsley. With respect to
what's been said at this council table is we can't have it both ways. We are
talking about a lengthy procedure that's going to require a lot of staff time and
yet at the same time my colleague is suggesting that we can sit down and
walk into an office and get this information. There is a requirement and
in our bylaws that we cannot access staff time beyond a certain amount without
permission and resolution of council and so this is a way of us all getting the
information that we need to proceed forward and to have a look at the bylaws
to make sure that they are reset for the council that is elected today. Thank
you Councillor Townsley. Councillor Richter. Yes and as I recall I believe the
exact number is two hours if anything is going to take more than two hours of
staff time we have to have a majority resolution of council to access that
staff time and I know that personally from the last council so I think myself
that one of the policies that needs to be reviewed is that particular policy of
limiting council access to staff to two hours and if it's not on this list it
should be. Thank you Councillor Richter. Councillor Martins. Thank you and I'd like
to echo the comments of my colleagues here. I am very mindful of staff time and
respectful of it. It's very inefficient for us to individually ask staff and I
think the other point is that doesn't come back to council that would be for
public access in a it will be an official report in a document that is an
agenda that will stay on the record and these informal conversations having
the staff are not documented and I think it's just a best way to receive
information is in an official report with the correct information in one time
by staff to council. Thank you Councillor Martins. Councillor Ferguson.
Well, procedurally first of all that all referrals go through a process and
usually it's moved in second and then there's a referral made accordingly. It
doesn't come first before that. There's been a lot set today about working with
staff. I'm sure that I've had the opportunity to meet with staff for many
terms and I've never gone over any time limit but certainly if you need an
answer it's better be prepared to come to council with answers and wait to put a
report forward if it takes more time and we're here to work on behalf of
the residents and come up with answers accordingly and sitting in a council
chamber not knowing what you're talking about or not having the
information that's not a good way to start to start the term. Also a lot of
questions about respect for staff. I mean I gave examples of how you know we
the staff had exempt and union at the same time the staff and union they
feel you've dumped this on us. Isn't that great? That's a great way to start
the term. We're asked to do twice as much work and in half the amount of
time you know I I suggest giving the staff more time for do these kind of
things because there's an awful lot on the agenda an awful lot. Now moving it
ahead for another meeting I mean that that's certainly that's something that
comes forward regarding how we handle the meeting but that shouldn't come up
as far as an important report that we haven't had an awful a lot of time to
read on. I mean those are the facts the facts are we haven't had a lot of
time to read this information and we will at the next meeting hopefully. So
that's why I'm discussing this so vehemently. Thank You Councillor
Ferguson, Councillor Townsend. Just a point of order that we were discussing
deferral and and so if I could request that we call the vote. We'll call the
deferral to vote that has been defeated with Councillor Ferguson and Councillor
Pratt voting yes. Go back to agenda C item C2. Councillor Ritter. Oh yeah I was
just going to ask if a person has spoken twice to the main motion but not
during the same speaking time did this twice still count so for example Mr.
Pratt or Councillor Pratt spoke the first time then we had a motion to amend
and then we came back after that and he spoke again so by my count I think he
can't speak on it anymore. I'll refer that to Miss Bower. Councillor Ritter is
correct and it would be to the call of a chair if a person was allowed to speak
further or a decision of council. So we are under the procedure bylaw and the
procedure bylaw allows us to speak twice to any motion for a maximum of five
minutes. I thought it was three minutes but so the procedure bylaw includes the
number of times we've spoken so thank you Councillor Ritter. Councillor Pratt I
will give you a third opportunity here but I think on the main motion I've
only spoken once okay. The two-hour staff time requirement as I understand it and
I look forward to looking further into it is if we are directing staff to
undertake work on behalf of council. In four years and I'm sure members of
council who sat at this table for longer than me have had the opportunity to sit
down and meet with staff and discuss with staff on any number of issues they
can meet for as long as it takes to get their answers that's the right that a
Councillor has and there's a number of these issues that we all have access to
SharePoint we've all got access to council agendas going back as far as
they've been digitized and I know that homework is important to a lot of
members of council and doing that homework and so we get paid to do a
pretty decent job of doing our own homework and I think that with all the
other items that this corporation has on its agenda that a significant number if
not every single one of these items and their changes could be discovered by
every member of this council with just a little bit of homework and a little bit
of elbow grease as opposed to sending staff out to do this job when they are
still required to run the corporation and so it's it's interesting and it's
you know it's how politics works campaigns are campaigns governing is
another story and I'll make sure that every single one of these items is
something that I'm doing my homework on so I appreciate it appreciate the
discussion I appreciate how closely some members of council wanted to hear to
certain bylaws and they're focused on the important things and they're focused
on the procedure I appreciate that so I'm looking forward to the vote thank
you Councillor Pratt Councillor Ferguson I don't necessarily agree with the
times but I think you know many of these things we've gone through and I
think if we can learn from some of these other things that's important
many of these questions I asked on a regular basis and you know as much as I
haven't read all of it most of that I have I think it it's going to be
interesting to see what they come up with but it doesn't hurt to clean up to
bylaws thank you thank you Councillor Ferguson with no more requests I'll move
this current motion to vote correct this is item c2 it's not allowing me to I'm
sorry it's only showing is a council members voted so if someone could just
double-check it's only showing us eight council members voting so just if
everyone could confirm that it says your vote has been cast at the bottom your
screen there we go motion has been accepted unanimously carried all right
can I have a motion the motion to item D sorry motion to resolve into special
closed session can have a mover and a seconder resolve into a special closed
session got Councillor Richter and seconded by Councillor Kunst all in
favor else I did I used the system here sorry accepted meeting adjourned I'm
sorry just we didn't actually do a motion for adjournment or we didn't do a
motion term no it's we're adjourning to the closed meeting so if we could have
just the motion to adjourn we can you repeat that miss we did the motion to
accept the closed items but we need to do a motion to adjourn this meeting to
the other meeting okay okay so motion to adjourn moved by Councillor
townsley seconded by Councillor chalice and that can just be a vote by hand
okay and vote by hand to adjourn motion accepted